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A good idea poorly executed
9 replies to this topic - Started By Tobias, Oct 18 2017 02:11 PM

#1 Tobias

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 02:11 PM

Hello,

 

I bought Rise To Ruins a few days ago, and have had a great time playing it.

I'm partial to this genre-mix between tower defense and village/world sim, and the attention to detail is evident all over.

I had a (short) list of things I was annoyed by (like the pop-up messages that block the entire field of view or how random events can completely fuck the game for newbies, never to return).

However, then I found that there's no way to win! 

 

This is a grave mistake. A game must have a sense of achievement, otherwise players get bored and leave - quickly.
Some players have no trouble setting goals for themselves ("just one more day!"), and thus get that sense of achievement when they reach their goal, and have no issues with just setting another goal ("just one more day!").

 

But this is a big minority of players. If this game doesn't incorporate some sense of achievement into the game mechanics, it will never really take off.

 

It could be done quickly by just putting a simple goal to each location: Survive for x days.

Once this goal is reached, log stats for the location and score the player on a global highscore list.
To cater to those who like to simply delay the inevitable, the game would continue as normal after the scoring is done.
 

There's absolutely no good reason not to allow players this comparison.

Finally, to me it was a huge red flag that the game is apparently still en early release, 3 years after made available.

 

It shows that the developers doesn't trust their code or their own judgement.
Grow a pair, freeze the specs and release the damn game. 
Then start on the sequel: Rise To Ruins, Again.

I know that's a lot of negative, so in conclusion let me reiterate that I love the game - well worth the money. I wouldn't be spending time here if I didn't like it - it's just that it could be so much better with very little effort and no change to gameplay. 

 

Thanks for the good times, but I'll be putting this back on the shelve until I don't have to figure out my own goals or how well I perform (far too much work!).




 

 

 

 


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#2 Rayvolution

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 02:32 PM


This is a grave mistake. A game must have a sense of achievement, otherwise players get bored and leave - quickly.
Some players have no trouble setting goals for themselves ("just one more day!"), and thus get that sense of achievement when they reach their goal, and have no issues with just setting another goal ("just one more day!").
 
This genre typically does not have win conditions, usually implementing them feels shoehorned in. Games do not explicitly need an absolute "You've won!" condition to be fun. :)
 
The goal in these games (from a developer's standpoint) are to extend the content wall so far out the player simply does not care, because "There's always something to do". A good example of this is Dwarf Fortress, as you can play it for months or even years and still not experience all the possibilities.
 

Finally, to me it was a huge red flag that the game is apparently still en early release, 3 years after made available.
 
It shows that the developers doesn't trust their code or their own judgement.
Grow a pair, freeze the specs and release the damn game. 
Then start on the sequel: Rise To Ruins, Again.
 
3 years is reasonable for a village simulator. This genre takes an exceptionally long time to develop, especially for only one developer. Rimworld was in development for 4 years before it was released. Hell, Dwarf Fortress has been in continued development for a decade.
 
These games take a lot of time. ;)

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#3 IIIStrife

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:46 AM

Honestly, all things considered, all I really have for gripes on a personal standpoint, is:

 

- Guards are pathetic. I wish I could pull a punch, but this is me sugarcoating and retracting alot of negativity. But like it honestly feels like Guards are not meant to be anything beyond an early-game option as in anything but Traditional difficulty, Guards get overwhelmed easily by day 8, with dozens of monsters ignoring them, except about 1-2 monsters per guard fighting the guards, and going straight for the gate to quickly melt it. I feel they would be better if monster-gear weren't automatically equipped BEFORE Iron gear, or if monster-gear was better.

 

- Villagers chat WAY too often, and take way too much time to do so. I don't know how many times I've seen a few villagers chatting for what seems like at least 20 seconds. Considering the fact that everything takes a long time early on, this is pretty detrimental, and most of all, annoying since there's nothing you can do about it.

 

- Towers feel sort of... a waste of resources if going for a variety. Like, let's just look at it for a moment. Sure, Bow and Bullet towers don't require really much, however in order to build multiple of them, it feels like it requires too much time. It takes me atleast four days to get guards going with a very small income of iron gear, versus even with a single chokepoint to defend

 

- The fact we can't do ANYTHING while the game is paused, feels more arbitrary than anything IMO. It would be nice to pause the game during a giant battle so as to figure out "Hmmm... I'm vastly outnumbered, how can I cheap this for a temporary victory?" While also scanning the battlefield, looking at guard, gate,and Tower HP, etc.

 

I feel alot of my gripes would be less of a thing with more useful spells. All I literally use is Banish against large armies, Recall to quickly grab Nomads, Pick up, if I'm tired of seeing half my builders hang around doing literally nothing for a solid minute and get impatient. And also Motive Land.

 

Earthquake as a spell, is borderline useless. It cannot, and has never killed anything with less than 100 hp. Even if Headless overwhelm normal villagers 3:1, they still lose everytime. Pure headless hordes are pure garbage. Earthquake as a spell also takes up too much influence for the fact it can't even half-damage a fully-grown spawner. It should consume the entire bar, but be capable of fully razing one if not multiple spawners.
Earthquake as a spell should be stronger than the natural event.

Storm as a spell is more or less the same, however, I've found it's great for killing alot of enemy units, and it COULD destroy spawners if the lighting focused entirely on one or maybe even two. But the bolts are purely random, and it is still somehow less effective as a full bars worth of meteors concentrated on one spawner.

 

Holy Golem, is honestly hot garbage. Either takes way too much influence, or is nowhere near strong enough to be useful. Unfortunately, most enemies are not immune to neutral-element magic damage. Zombies aren't, Skeletons aren't, not even Headless or Slimes are.
Basically only Fire Elementals and Spectres are weak to Holy Golem attacks, but Holy Golems only have at more 300 health, and degen, so they basically can't 1v1 a zombie.

If a Holy Golem can't 1v1 a 250hp Zombie, what's the actual point of it? It takes two to kill a fully grown spawner and only if you are handling all the spawner's guards beforehand.

 

Fire is useless. If you want to fry a bunch of enemies concentrated in one area, you absolutely have no choice but to spam at least 6 or 7 casts to actually kill anything other than a Headless or a weak zombie as burning damage does not take any advantages of fire weakness.
It is possibly useful for killing buildings, but, like meteor, you have to spend an entire bar of Influence. It would be better if it couldn't damage stone walls, which baffles me tbh, since fire literally does nothing to stone. Also if it didn't hit friendly units, it would be better, but using it mid-fight on armies, I end up killing the army, but also my own villagers as often due to how deadly.

 

Meteor is just as useless, beyond it's ability to instakill units it hits directly unless it's within the hitbox of a structure or another unit. Although, a full bar cast chain of Meteor literally has as much if not more building-killing power than Earthquake or Storm. That's the only use I have for it. Due on how it deals a slightly wider AoE than Flame does, but it can instakill units, I don't even want to know what a full bar will do to my villagers whilst targeting enemy masses with this spell amidst fighting.

 

Dissolve is almost completely useless unless literally 50+ bodies are in one place, but even then, it never can get enough bodies to even pay itself back. There's literally no actual point for it as bodies will give you more just after waiting for ten seconds, and dissolving resources is nothing but a total waste.

 

Healing Aura would be good if it didn't cause villagers to be confused or panic, or if villagers in the field either had a regen passive after leaving the area, or if it even helped fight Blight at all... When it literally can't affect Blighted villagers.

 

Resurrect, is really the most useful spell. If you can bloody-well find a ghost to use it on that is, which is almost impossible in maps with more than 80 villagers, or villages located upon sand, or other bright tile types.

 

Banish, nothing to really say about it. Though it sometimes feels like it's purely random, when tbh I actually wouldn't mind if it stunned or confused affected monsters, or sent them a really far way away.

 

The thing about Spells too, is... you really can't afford to squander it in any way, shape or form on Survival difficulty. no matter how well you're doing, you may get stormed by any amount of the 300+ monsters on the whole map, alot of which could be zombies, which are ridiculously strong for dead, decaying undead creatures.

Every spell above, save for Banish and Resurrect, really do nothing that justifies their cost. No god spell is a useful and permanent way of quickly removing masses of enemy units, and we sorta need this, since Banish, really isn't that useful unless you have a full bar to use.

However, if monsters targeted Guards before Gates, and Guards ganged up on monsters often and defended buildings being attacked (which they don't btw, I've found a few zombies bashing on the front gate, only to have guards barely half a screen away just do nothing) then the need for more useful and not terrible god spells wouldn't exist. Then again, they still would, cause... yeah. The above are about as terrible as I state.

There's no truly effective and efficient influence-based response for huge armies knocking on your gates while ignoring your 24 guards loaded up in iron gear, or for dealing with the spawners nearby your walls.

The monster targeting is kinda really the most baffling part of the game, and it really quite angers me honestly. When monsters literally ignore guards and focus on dogs or gates, it makes Guards pointless and a waste of time entirely, especially when their first instinct is to equip more useless gear versus the more useful, since with enough towers at a high enough level, almost no amount of enemies can overwhelm such a line of defence, when it's really then all about mining into mountains and raising ballistae towers to cheap spawners and roaming enemy masses out quick and painlessly.


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#4 rwv37

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 07:56 PM

Wow, I strongly disagree with a lot of this regarding spells.  It seems we have very different playing styles.  Not only do I find many of your "useless" ones very useful, but also I'm not particularly enthralled with some of the ones you find useful.

 

Storm as a spell is more or less the same, however, I've found it's great for killing alot of enemy units, and it COULD destroy spawners if the lighting focused entirely on one or maybe even two. But the bolts are purely random, and it is still somehow less effective as a full bars worth of meteors concentrated on one spawner.

 

 

Storm is great.  Rain on demand.  This means not just water, but also an immediate opportunity to use Motivate Land.  Motivate Land means food, wood, and (as described below) stored essence for use in emergencies.

 

Dissolve is almost completely useless unless literally 50+ bodies are in one place, but even then, it never can get enough bodies to even pay itself back. There's literally no actual point for it as bodies will give you more just after waiting for ten seconds, and dissolving resources is nothing but a total waste.

 

 

 

Dissolve is great.  Essence on demand.  Use it on forests outside of your village.  You'll get back more essence from it than you spent on it.

 

Also, during times when you have enough essence, consider using Motivate Land (and possibly Storm) to grow back those forests outside of your village.  It's a great cycle - Motivate Land when you can, Dissolve when you need.  It's like charging up a battery so you can use it later.

 

Every spell above, save for Banish and Resurrect, really do nothing that justifies their cost. No god spell is a useful and permanent way of quickly removing masses of enemy units, and we sorta need this, since Banish, really isn't that useful unless you have a full bar to use.

 

 

 

Perhaps I missed it, but you don't seem to have mentioned Send to Limbo, which is phenomenally useful against masses of enemy units.  You don't need to send them all to Limbo; zap one judiciously chosen monster, and many monsters will stop in their tracks, then turn around and go home.

 

I use those spells - Storm, Motivate Land, Dissolve, and Send to Limbo - pretty frequently.  Others that I use frequently are:

  • Grab: Usually for dropping monsters in Cullis Gates, thus getting essence.  Occasionally for various other things: Getting something I want (like a sword) that dropped outside of the village and moving it in; moving something that I DON'T want (like a wooden sword) out of the village; grabbing a villager or doggo who has wandered too far afield and is in dangerous territory.  Also, once in a great while, I'll use it to harvest rock or wood or whatever, but I pretty much only do that in emergencies.
  • Take from Limbo: I usually have a few different villages going in the world at once, with different purposes, and sometimes move things back and forth between them.
  • Healing Aura: I use it occasionally on blighted or poisoned people/doggos.
  • Recall: Usually for getting nomads into the village before they die.  Sometimes for getting big clusters of resource drops (e.g. from nomads who did die, or from spawn pits that were destroyed).

Meteor, Flame, and Holy Golem I use only rarely; mostly if I happen to notice a spawn pit that is nearly dead but that has nobody attacking it.

 

Banish is rare; just a last-gasp defense if my normal methodology has failed and I desperately need to get a bunch of monsters out quickly.  My "normal methodology" being zapping to Limbo (as I described above, one per group of monsters) interspersed with occasional Grabs (for dropping monsters in the Cullis Gates, thus regaining mana).  That normally works well, even before I'm able to get a "real" defense up.

 

Earthquake, almost never, although I have used it a few times to try to grow some rock in areas I wanted to block off but where I couldn't easily build a wall.

 

Resurrect, almost never.  If I happen to notice a ghost doggo, I'll resurrect it, because I love the doggos.  Other than that, though, I don't really see why I should bother with Resurrect.


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#5 Zanuda

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 04:42 AM

My personal favorite strategy late game when you get enough essence to recoup fast, spam flame a bit on closely located enemy buildings to hit multiple of them per click, wait for the monsters to to start fixing the buildings then grab them and throwing them into the Cullis gate to prevent them from fixing up the building. Then you can finish up spamming Flame. That way you can take out a few enemy buildings with just one full essence bar
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#6 loner

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:59 PM

I have to agree with Tobias' point that the game needs some kind of meaningful long-term goals.

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I'm currently trying Rise to Ruins from my brother's shared Steam library, and while I've greatly enjoyed the few hours I experienced so far - lack of aforementioned goals / progression is one of the reasons I've stopped short of actually buying the game for myself.

Sure, you can "extend content", but just adding more and more of the same content (maps) will only go so far before gameplay itself gets stale. I'm sure there are players who will be satisfied with the sole prospect of simply getting better and better at the game. However, many (myself included) would prefer something more meaningful - lore and secrets to discover, bosses to fight, interesting characters to meet, mysteries and puzzles to solve, new abilities to acquire, collectibles and easter eggs to find, etc.

.

I sincerely hope this is something you will warm up to. My only other major complaint about the game is the incredibly clunky and inefficient UI, but this is something I can live with. Lack of meaningful goals, unfortunately, is not.
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#7 Destructor

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:33 AM

I don't think we need any late game goals here. Survival games is not about wining, it's about surviving as long as you can, using different tactics. When game has late game goals, missions, players will try to complete them instead of surviving, I mean they still would try to survive but will be much more focused on completing goals than actual survival. It's even worse situation if only those missions/goals can give you new items or resources as reward, in this case, you're forced to complete/achieve them to progress, it bothers me personally, I came here to survive, not to do some shitty missions or achieve goals. And last one, "You win!" makes survival game boring. After you completed game, it won't attract you as much as attracted before. By the way this game is not only survival, it's village simulator too - city/village builder, I didn't find any city building game with win conditions. You're trying to build your own village, why the hell there should be win conditions.


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#8 loner

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 12:43 AM

There's plenty of survival games that offer much more than just "survival for the sake of survival". Secondary goals aren't a bad thing, and there's nothing wrong with players pursuing them. It's not like a game will suddenly become a completely different genre. Rise to Ruins is still a village-building survival game, and it will remain as such even if there's more things to do.

Do you think Loot Boxes ruined the game? Imagine if instead of loot boxes there were scrolls with a bit of story/lore written in them - I doubt the game would be ruined either. There's plenty of ways interesting content could be implemented without a "You win! The end!" screen and without having to unlock anything.




I get that not everyone likes campaigns / story / exploration / etc. That's why almost every strategy game (be it RTS, TBS, city builders, survival strategies, god games - you name it) has a "skirmish mode" where you start with everything unlocked, without any bells and whistles to bother you. In fact, Rise to Ruins has a mode called..... "Skirmish".

You have to understand that also not everyone likes getting really good at games just for the sake of getting good. Same reason why many people don't like replaying games over and over just to achieve the highest score or fastest time (aka speedrunning). Many people play for the feeling of discovery - to have something new and unknown to look forward to, something that would help them experience the game differently or learn more about its world.

This is the reason why many games offer both a campaign/story mode and a no-frills skirmish/arcade mode.



After you completed game, it won't attract you as much as attracted before.


See, that's how Rise to Ruins *already* makes me feel, and I've only played for 10 hours. I realized that I've already "completed" the game - I tried all the things, experienced all game mechanics, and now there's nothing else left to discover. All that's left is getting better at doing the same thing ("surviving") on different maps.

That's it.

At the end of the day, I vote with my wallet. I don't think I'll be interested in playing Rise to Ruins for much longer, so it doesn't make sense for me to spend money on it. If some kind of story content is ever added - I'll buy the game in a heartbeat, because the gameplay part of Rise to Ruins is fantastic. But to me gameplay alone is simply not enough.
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#9 Bolgfred

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 03:28 AM

See, that's how Rise to Ruins *already* makes me feel, and I've only played for 10 hours. I realized that I've already "completed" the game - I tried all the things, experienced all game mechanics, and now there's nothing else left to discover. All that's left is getting better at doing the same thing ("surviving") on different maps.

 

Maybe it's right, you completed the game after 10 hours already. Maybe you only think you did.

Actually youre surely correct about it, that all game elements aren't not to difficult to name or to understand. Same could be said about Chess.

 

I am not around 200 hours playing, and still don't feel as I am really done. Sure, since I play nightmare only, I cannot increase the challenge anymore, and the fourth winter doesn't feel much more treatening than the third did, but I did set my goals for my town, and I am keep on working on the big plan as the game gives me the freedom to do what I want - and the music is great. 

 

All-In-All I'd suggest to remember that the game is still under development. I think I remember when Ray said something about spending more love in endgame content or making maps more unique. By this you should enjoy the game now if this one spends you joy, or wait until later when more joy was added to the game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If some kind of story content is ever added - I'll buy the game in a heartbeat, because the gameplay part of Rise to Ruins is fantastic. But to me gameplay alone is simply not enough.

 

Now I am confused. Gameplay is fantastic, this I understand. But what you mean about the story? Didn't you see Jonathan Frakes and Marie Curie did just married and raised a family? This morning Peter Jackson was hit by a meteor and died!

What is happening here is history!


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#10 Ryva

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 06:56 PM

Hey, new player here with my first successful village in survival mode - and by that, I mean I feel pretty confident I can survive indefinitely.

 

Earthquake as a spell, is borderline useless. It cannot, and has never killed anything with less than 100 hp. Even if Headless overwhelm normal villagers 3:1, they still lose everytime. Pure headless hordes are pure garbage. Earthquake as a spell also takes up too much influence for the fact it can't even half-damage a fully-grown spawner. It should consume the entire bar, but be capable of fully razing one if not multiple spawners.

Earthquake as a spell should be stronger than the natural event.

 

I just had to create an account when I saw this because I wanted to point out that Earthquake is a pretty powerful spell if used right. Spam it enough and I can destroy 6 or 7 spawn pits in one morning, and maybe more if there's enough essence floating about from monsters killed the night prior and the pits are clumped close enough together. It is THE tool for monster population control.

 

Cheers.


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